Wednesday, March 14, 2012

Barack isn't liberal enough

Sometimes you put so damn much effort into arguing with liberals on Face book you want to memorialize the thing in a blog.  Cami is a talented singer and old acquaintance from High School.  Based on this exchange I'd say further left politically than Obama.  I tend to be further right - toward Libertarian but with small reservations about Ron Paul's views on sticking our head in the sand overseas.  What's funny is that Cami and I agree on many points but she is too pissed off to notice.  I've lived in Arab countries so I'm sympathetic to the koombaya message but I guess I start asking questions when some one's views are so black and white they can't see the other side. I tend to piss people off for some reason. So here is the long exchange that is complete mental masturbation as neither side is listening to the other.  I write and type fast and didn't think anyone would beat me on sheer volume but Cami managed.  Either she is a very fast typist or has lots of time or both.  The last volley was so overwhelming and so full of wrong thinking and easy targets to that I'd spend all day picking it apart.

President Barack Obama,
Across the political spectrum, Americans want the U.S. military out of Afghanistan now. This is an election year. It might be wise to start listening. THERE IS ONLY ONE WAY to fix our huge deficit - get out of the Middle East. You didn't start this mess - but you can BE THE MAN who ends it. Wouldn't that be how you would like to be remembered?... as The President who stopped World War 3? These civilians are not terrorists - they are terrorized - by US, the "good guys"! HA! What the hell happened? Can corporate profit really be more important than the sanctity of all life?? And at what a cost to your country? Is Cheney's Halliburton/KBR worth this? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halliburton) You need to wash your hands of this despicable war-mongering mentality.  Come on, Mr. Obama, what would YOUR MOM want you to do? And your father? Please Sir, have the audacity to HOPE for an end to this insanity. Be the man you convinced us you are!
Sincerely,
Your supporter and fellow activist - but skeptic...
Cami Thompson

Darren McBride We're spending that much in the middle east that we could balance the budget if we just got out? Huh. that doesn't sound intuitively correct.

Billy Slais
The $$ is part of it...but, excuse me for being graphic, a staff sergeant walked a mile from his base and murdered 16 innocent human beings in cold blood, 9 of which were children who he put a bullet through their forehead. What freekin' message do we need to end this insanity? If our war policy in Afghanistan can move a soldier to this brutal act, what does that say about the war itself? Our primary mission there was to gain the favor of the non-Taliban populace. Mission failed. Get out and bring our troops home...period.

Darren McBride So that one guy & one event represents everything we stand for, everything we're there for... and proves our entire cause is misguided? Plus... we could balance the budget by just leaving? Wow makes sense. Let's get out then.

Cami Thompson Darren - check this out...http://costofwar.com/en/ The cost of this war to the US is over half a TRILLION dollars in Afghanistan alone, over $800 Billion in Iraq, and we're not really done there either. You don't think that MIGHT have a pretty friggin' HUGE impact on the US economy if that money was invested here???? Or better yet, paying down our foreign debt?

 
Billy Slais There are other incidents that have occurred recently that suggest it's a huge debacle; urinating on dead Afghanis, the Koran burning that resulted in American deaths, the casualty rate of Americans is more from friendlies than the Taliban...it goes on...and it's time to bring the troops home.

  Cami Thompson
Checking the dollar meter on the ACTUAL cost of this war - troops pay, officers pay, housing, food, medical, hospitals, training, local training, armaments, weapons, ammunition, protection, security, gas, oil, diesel, planes, ships, trucks, various transportation, computers, spies, intelligence gathering, payola, and everything I don't know about - it's running at a little over $4,000 dollars a SECOND! Want me to do your math for you, too? That's about $250,000 a MINUTE, 15 MILLION DOLLARS AN HOUR, 360 MILLION DOLLARS A DAY, 2.5 BILLION DOLLARS A WEEK, OVER 10 BILLION DOLLARS A MONTH!
Cami Thompson In the 8 MINUTES it took me to write you this little note, the citizens of USA just LOST ... 2 MILLION DOLARS!
$509,524,089,118 as of now!
Cami Thompson Military costs account for 56.94% of US Government spending. What woud your household budget look like if you had to pay that percentage yourself, Darren?

Cami Thompson AND one more thing - that one guy killing 16 innocent people is not an isolated event. Let me give you s little recap just in case... Have you forgotten the wedding massacre? The Water-boarding? I guess you have forgetten Guantanamo

Billy Slais As I say good night...I also say.....I so agree with you Ms Thompson.

Cami Thompson
And how about these... 1. Mahmudiyah killings involving the rape and murder of a 14 year old girl and the murder of her family by U.S. troops. 2. On September 16, 2007, Blackwater military contractors shot and killed 17 Iraqi civilians in Nisour Square, Baghdad. 3. Beginning in 2004, accounts of physical, psychological, and sexual abuse, including torture, rape, sodomy, and homicide of prisoners held in the Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq (also known as Baghdad Correctional Facility) came to public attention. These acts were committed by military police personnel of the United States Army together with additional US governmental agencies.

Cami Thompson It's just too bad that "everything we stand for" - as you say - doesn't have room to show up in WAR.

Billy Slais One more thought...all that's being done in Afghanistan, is being done in each of our names....I want my name off that list.

Billy Slais And don't go the right wing militaristic route on me, I'm a Vietnam vet and I know what lousy war is all about.

Cami Thompson Sleep well, Billy - I bet you served your country and your fellows to the best of your ability.

Cami Thompson Oh, and Darren - more than 110 Million Dollars SPENT on Afghanistan WAR since you posted here over 7 hours ago. It adds up, huh?

Cami Thompson ‎$509,533,479,107 now - about 9.4Million since last posted

Billy Slais Disappointed in the prez....says he won't go for a sooner withdrawal...I'm betting he'll change his mind before the election because the right sees an issue there and just might come out for an early withdrawal....that would be news.

Darren McBride
Cami the only intent of my question was to wonder whether such a complex issue could be so black and white. As I intended, you checked the cost of the war. Is the statement "only one way to fix our huge deficit" literally true? Obama's deficit is 1.5 Trillion per year. Your figure of 1.3Trillion for the wars divided by 10 years is .13 Trillion per year. Before you go non-linear on me I agree with you - if I were in charge I'd probably get out of the middle east. Although I would also be strongly considering bombing the shit out of Iran's nuclear facilities right now.

Darren McBride I DO pay the military out of my household budget. I'm part of the 53% of Americans that pay taxes. In fact, I pay a radically disproportionate share of taxes comparatively.


Billy Slais I'm tired of "bombing the shit" out of Mid-East countries....we've destroyed our economy with that type of action. If we had a similar problem with Mexico (nuke capability), would you expect Israel to come over and take care of our problem. Israel has a capable military..and if they can't get the job done, then we consider "bombing the shit" of of someone.

Darren McBride either way we'll end up in another war and paying for it. I hate to spend any more money on the middle east too but crazy religious people with Nukes is a lot more serious than Osama using planes to kill a mere 3000 people. My understanding is that Israel may *not* have sufficient capabilities to take out the 12 plus bunkered sites.

Billy Slais
That's possible Darren re capabilities...but I doubt it. In the past, Israel has taken unilateral action including the covert actions (assassinations) against the nuke scientists (guessing it was them)..before they complete the bunkers, you can be sure Israel will take action if those bunkers would prevent effective bombing. Pretty sure we would assist them with stealth/drone technology if they need it...but overt bombing would be a huge mistake..probably resulting in a ground troops war and our eventually putting "boots on the ground".

Darren McBride Yep we will if we can't negotiate them out of it. Worse is to let them have a nuke when they've demonstrated such blind religious zealotry.

Billy Slais
There is one positive...I guess...mutual annihilation is assured if they were ever to use a nuke...they're dumb, but they're not stupid. FYI: the "Death To America" rallies have started today as well as burning the president in effigy...that's in Afghanistan of course...I hope we can get out of there before any more needless American blood is spillled...it's gonna get worse before it gets better...good talkin' to ya...

Darren McBride Actually muslims have a religious equivalent to christian "rapture" that envisions end of world and they may be willing to begin it. You're expecting logic of MAD from people who invented suicide bombing.

Billy Slais True...I do think they'd have to consider the timing of such..

Cami Thompson
Couple things Darren - "Obama's deficit"??? WTF? uhhh - sorry, but suicide bombing goes back a bit farther than radical Muslims. And PLEASE try to remember that you are talking about a MINORITY of radicals in the Muslim faith. Probably as proportionate as the radical "Christians" (Inquisitors, conquistadors, missionaries, etc.) who tortured and annihilated countless civilians and civilizations in the name of their "god" during the last 1200 years, including so-called witches, priests and priestesses, herbalists, pagans, Moors, Islamics, South Americans, Central Americans, native North Americans, Filipinos,

Darren McBride
Maybe I should have said muslims invented suicide bombing of innocent civilians.  Hate it when I'm wrong.


Cami Thompson
oops - I cut off my first sentence... "Obama's deficit" - REALLY? Who got us into this illegal war in this first place? In the year 2000, the government had a budget surplus. But instead of using it to pay off our debt, the Bush administration spent trillions of dollars in new tax cuts in 2001 and 2003, while two wars and an expensive seniors prescription drug program were simply added to our nation’s credit card. As a result, the recorded deficit was $1.1 trillion the year Obama took office. But that was only what was on record. A HUGE MASS of military contract spending was NEVER accounted for on the books by the Bush-Cheney Crime Family. Halliburton and KBR costs were somehow paid without Legislative approval or record. The actual debt, according to the US Treasury Department, was $10.626 trillion on the day Mr. Obama took office, almost 10 times higher. The majority of our deficit now - an additional $4Trillion - has been generated by the economic crisis and the Obama administration's efforts to keep the US out of a major depression and default, with stimulus packages and unemployment extensions. It might be a good idea to listen to several media sources and do some homework before you blame this administration for our $14 Trillion deficit. The ball was put in motion for the Elite of our world to "harvest" America's wealth way before Obama took office.

Cami Thompson And as far as bombing - grow up. There is NO us and them when it comes to nuclear devastation. WE ARE ALL BROTHERS AND SISTERS. When the US military stops acting like an enemy to the Middle East, the radicals will stop reacting. WE started this fight by assuming anywhere there is oil, we have a right to it.

Darren McBride
I agree with most of your points about the previous administration starting us on the path to both war and record deficits. They are as guilty and criminal as you say...almost equally bad as Obama but in different ways. I referred to them as Obama's deficits because he is responsible for accelerating them DRAMATICALLY. http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20019931-503544.html While I have no doubt there were some skunk works military spending I have never heard we had untold massive trillions of hidden debt, unless you're counting unfunded retirement, VA, and social security deficits, in which case once again I agree but that lie was hardly invented by Bush. I'd be interested of documentation of 10 trillion of hidden deficits. I believe you may be mixing the debt and deficit. I agree that Christians are as guilty of murder and radicalization and continue to be a pimple on the ass of progress to this day, although much of the murder and mayhem is centuries past, whereas Muslims are still stuck in dark age mentality NOW (rights for women etc.). As far as whether the problem is chicken or egg we could pursue that argument quite far. Are muslims pissed because we unfairly allowed Israel to take Palestine after World war II? Or was a reasonable reaction because they aligned themselves with Hitler during the war? Did they align with Hitler because they hate Jews? Or because of western imperialism? 

Curious what path you would take if you were president that would win the arab world to our side, make everyone sing kumbaya? Obama extended some pretty serious olive branches (kissed arab ass) when he took office, and radical arabs still hate christians, the u.s., jews, women, and life in general. Suicide bombers still kill way more innocents than the few U.S. military guys who go bonkers every now and then. Some of what I would do is build crap loads of safety rated nuclear plants, stop pissing away tax subsides on solar and wind, encourage conversion to electric and natural gas cars, drill baby drill for oil in the U.S., allow the gas pipeline, safely develop fracking for natural gas, and LET THE ARABS and Africans and South americans KEEP their F'ing oil and their problems. Wanna bet they'd still pose a nuclear threat? even more so.

Darren McBride I didn't suggest bombing Iran's nuke facilities lightly when I used the term "bomb the shit" I wasn't some adolescent suggesting "kill them all". Obama your hero is seriously considering it. As is the entire rational western world, europe, even China and Russia because Iran is run by crazy fuckers


Cami Thompson
Ok whoa - The previous administration is "almost equally as bad as Obama?" I think a few MILLION of us would disagree with you there, Darren. 
Darren.  Yes, but only the ones who are wrong.  Grin
Worldwide I think Bush and Cheney are two of the most hated men since Hitler because of their crimes against humanity. Obama seems to be hated mostly for the color of his skin,
Darren.  I've been trying not to be rude - but BULLSHIT.  Don't pull the race card. He isn't hated for his race (well maybe by a minority).  He's hated because he is a liberal who is spending money we don't have, trying to make unequal people equal (insisting that apples and oranges are equal is a fools errand), thinking that the way to achieve fairness in the universe is to take from people who work hard and achieve and give to people who don't.  He's not evil, he's just philosophically wrong.  Just as Bush wasn't evil.
 and whatever bad choices he is making by listening to his damned Clinton advisors!
Darren.  One of Obama's only redeeming features is he listens to intelligent, educated people when explain to him when that his liberal idealism will result in total catastrophy.  When faced with sobering intelligence on what radical left thinking will do, intelligent people make correct choices.
 But our economy did NOT collapse, and things are not as bad as they were in 2010, so some progress toward stabilization has occurred.
Darren.  In my opinion that is an illusion.  More bad times and inflation coming soon

 I gathered some (oh god so boring!) economic facts from these websites... http://www.usgovernmentdebt.us/ http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/spending_brief.php http://www.federalbudget.com/ This one will mess you up... careful not to stare too long! http://www.usdebtclock.org/ And this one was the most informative..http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/politics/30-years-spending-priorities-federal-budget-2012/ So BushCo. left 10 trillion in DEBT in his wake. I appreciate that you recognize the horrific illegal wars and financial crisis "path" that the Bush-Cheney Regime set us on, but if you had taken over this quagmire, would you really be able to just drop bombs on people who disagree with you?
darren. Only if they've stated their goal is to wipe out infidels and I can see them preparing to do so.
 Hell yeah, I'd rather sing us to Peace! But since the Neocons keep removing school arts funding, who's gonna know how?? No ass-kissing or olive branches are gonna work until we ELIMINATE THE NEED FOR OIL and all fossil fuels, and the evil violent practices to acquire them. 
Darren. I said that.  As your sister supports, Nuclear is the answer
IT IS MURDER, DARREN - pure and simple. And your idea to frack this planet to hell is ludicrous; it will take YEARS to acquire anything actually usable, and at an enormous cost both economically and environmentally. 
Darren. Fracking is an intermediate solution until Nuclear can come online.
But I guess you have your way of seeing the world as an asset, and I see it as a beautiful living thing I am here to honor, nurture, respect and protect. WE will never agree on that issue.-ow here is something that really gets me riled up... you said "much of the [Christians'] murder and mayhem is centuries past, whereas Muslims are still stuck in dark age mentality NOW (rights for women etc.)." ---- WHAT??? What do you call Christian Conservatives revoking women's health rights by trying to remove women's contraception (but not their sacred Erectile Disfunction meds) from health insurance? and Planned Parenthood? What do you call Limbaugh's verbal assault of Sandra Fluke? What do you call the continuous Christian Right effort to recall Roe v. Wade? Or hey, how about the gang-raping of female US SOLDIERS in combat zones by THEIR FELLOW MALE SOLDIERS??? oh. and men too.
Darren. At Least christians let you drive.
 Go Soldiers. yay US Military. let me wave my flag. Oh yeah, that's a modern way of behaving like a Christian. But I guess that is just a psycho-socio-phobic reaction by men who are insane due to the traumatic distress of serving in the illegal acts of WAR! WE are a nation led by Christians. Our commandment is THOU SHALT NOT KILL!! 
Darren -  Christians like to point out the original language was Thou shalt not murder.  Makes em feel better for killing in self defense or war.
What do you call the INSANITY of bombing INNOCENT CIVILIANS in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, non-military locations? And what do you call the illegal, unsanctioned attacks and bombings on other countries? 
Darren -  Bullies do exist in the world.  You gotta kick their ass sometimes.  War kills innocents and it has always been thus.  Our choice in Japan would have been to continue to slog through a war with more of our people being killed.  There are no easy answers.  At least Hiroshima ended the war, reinforced the horrors and have prevented another Nuke for the last 50 years.  No telling what the world would have been without it.  The butterfly effect was too massive to know.
Like killing hundreds of thousands of innocent women and children throughout villages in Korea, Vietnam, Libya, Panama, El Salvador, Somalia, Bosnia, Kosavo -- all under the command of so-called CHRISTIAN Presidents? 
Darren - You'll get no argument from me that religions are the cause of many deaths and magical thinking is not a good thing.  Obama is christian too.  You could try to elect me if you hate Christians - I'm an atheist.
The US has not legally (Constitutionally) declared WAR on any country since 1945. And yet on we go, as if we have some divine right to police the world... just because we want the power, and the glory, and the MONNNNEEEYYY - Forever, Ahhhh - men!! And so - what about our little attacks on Muslims? Afghanistan and Libya (both times) are still "undeclared operations" -- not wars! What do you call the torture, rape and murder of Islamic women and children, and the non-defended prisoners accused without evidence? What the hell do YOU call the bombing of HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of innocent women and children in unprotected villages throughout the Middle East - leaving them dead or just maimed, crippled, homeless - and so much angrier? Do you call that civilized? Do you call that Christian behavior? 

What do you consider "justifiable collateral", Darren - only Muslim lives? How "Christian is that ideal? And -- How about our troops? American Military Casualties in Iraq 
Darren - You can't  keep using the christian behavior argument with me.  I'm an atheist.  Muslims kill each other and innocents more than we do.  At least we TRY not to kill innocents in pursuit of the goal of protecting our interests.

 (Total: # /// In Combat: #)
Since war began (3/19/03): 4486 /// 3532
Since "Mission Accomplished" (5/1/03): 4347 /// 3424
Since Handover (6/29/04): 3627 /// 2899
Since Obama Inauguration (1/20/09): 257 /// 128
Since Operation New Dawn: 68 /// 39
American Wounded: Official Estimated
Total Wounded: 33,184 Over 120,000
And that might not include the thousands who will return home with PTSD and hope to find affordable medical care.  And are you still under the delusion that the 9/11 attacks were carried off by a bunch of radical Muslims? 
Darren.  Yes
or even better - Iraqis? Or maybe all of the Muslims who hate the US planned it? No, it was believed to be just 19 men, mostly from Saudi Arabia, who were all believed to be members of Al Qaeda.... BECAUSE "THE (Military-Industrial-Government-Complex-controlled-and-subsidized) MEDIA" TOLD US SO!!! Can you even grasp how much intelligence would be required to pull off an attack like that?
Darren.  More than is in this thread. grin.
 Can you or I possibly consider all of the "agreements" and "arrangements" that had to be PUT in place for this to happen? For this to be ALLOWED to happen? Do you have any idea how much evidence has disappeared - photos and videos - of the actual explosion at the Pentagon since the attack? Do you know how many hundreds of investigators and technicians and medical personnel and family members disagree with the findings by the 9/11 Commission?
Wow.  You sound like a neocon.  Was Kennedy assasinated by someone on the grassy Knoll too?
 After the 4 years of research I did, it seems to me that the Military Industrial Complex had quite a nifty little plan put together to nudge the US into another long-term war for profit.... just as Project for the New American Century outlined in their 1998 Conference = because they needed another Pearl Harbor. Om exhausted. I have to stop going on like this. But when I read comments like yours that show such ignorance and disdain for the rest of the people and all of the precious living things that share our planet, I just go crazy.
There are 7 billion people on the planet.  We are an infestation on the planet.  (Notice we're running out of text so it becomes necessary to say something to piss you off).
 Maybe its because I have been so lucky as to travel the world a bit -- over 26 countries -- and seen the smiles on faces of children living in abject poverty, because they are happy. They don't need oil, or electricity, or computers, or cell phones, or nice clothes. They just need shelter, food, water and love. And education would be nice.
Yep, unfortunately the Afghans won't get educated because we'll be minding our own business over here instead of trying to teach the ignorant fucks how to read.
 Darren, go travel for a few months, Get the hell outta the US and see the world as it really is....... We are not here to rule. We are here to serve.
Or Learn.  OR be happy.  depending on your philosophy.  Personally I'm here to learn and be happy.  .

US Federal Debt by Year - Charts Tables Historywww.usgovernmentdebt.us
Charts and analysis of the US Federal Debt, including current debt, 20th century...See More

Cami Thompson Sure Darren, post this to your blog. I'm sure I can stand to lose another dozen NeoCon extremist friends or so! What the heck!

Cami Thompson Peace, Love and Light, and Kumbaya to you and yours!

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